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Arachni UI Web freezes

samuel's Avatar

samuel

26 Jul, 2013 10:52 AM

Hello,
i'm using the arachni ui web tool with a postgres db. it's great but it freezes after one and a half hour. i don't know why. there is nothing written in the log. The website which i scan has 500 pages. but that should not be a problem, or?

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  1. Support Staff 31 Posted by Tasos Laskos on 04 Aug, 2013 03:08 PM

    Tasos Laskos's Avatar

    Unfortunately no, I had tried that a long time ago but the audit was corrupting the crawl. I do plan to try it again for v0.5 though, make the crawl and the audit one operation.

    Closing this discussion since the issue has been resolved.

    PS. You're very welcome.

  2. Tasos Laskos closed this discussion on 04 Aug, 2013 03:08 PM.

  3. Hariharan Madhavan re-opened this discussion on 05 Aug, 2013 09:37 AM

  4. 32 Posted by Hariharan Madha... on 05 Aug, 2013 09:37 AM

    Hariharan Madhavan's Avatar

    Tasos, Operation Success, but patient is still breathing for life....

    The app is stable now, but what it took 1hr to scan before is now taking 4 hours....

    The threads are all well controlled, the app used to take 70% of the VM cpu before... But now the max is 6.6%

    25348 root 20 0 451m 108m 6476 S 6.6 2.8 2:26.23 ruby

    I know its too much to ask, but can you make it use the full cpu and still solve this issue....

  5. Support Staff 33 Posted by Tasos Laskos on 05 Aug, 2013 12:23 PM

    Tasos Laskos's Avatar

    What nightly did you download (and when)? I've been playing a bit with the path traversal module and it now performs more requests to get more coverage.

    Still trying to balance it out.

  6. Support Staff 34 Posted by Tasos Laskos on 05 Aug, 2013 02:09 PM

    Tasos Laskos's Avatar

    Come to think about it, the path_traversal change shouldn't have had that big of an impact on the scan time, I'm guessing that some suboptimal network conditions/server-responsiveness was involved this time as well.

    At most it could have added a few more minutes.

  7. 35 Posted by Hariharan Madha... on 05 Aug, 2013 02:25 PM

    Hariharan Madhavan's Avatar

    Please find the screenshot attached... This site used to take 1hour to scan with Arachni. It takes 10 minutes to scan this site with Metasploit Pro.

    But Arachni produced a better result than any other scanner for me..

    Its the best.. But its too slow now..

  8. Support Staff 36 Posted by Tasos Laskos on 05 Aug, 2013 02:29 PM

    Tasos Laskos's Avatar

    Look at the response times, they're in the tank, average response time is more than 1 second. The server is barely responding.

  9. 37 Posted by Hariharan Madha... on 05 Aug, 2013 02:41 PM

    Hariharan Madhavan's Avatar

    True, that's what it shows here, but previously it used to show less response times and more request concurrency. Atleast 10-11 concurrent threads used to run..

    Boss the site im talking about is sparingly used.. Apart from my scan log, the visitor traffic is only around 3-4 a day..

  10. Support Staff 38 Posted by Tasos Laskos on 05 Aug, 2013 02:46 PM

    Tasos Laskos's Avatar

    Yeah concurrency is throttled down as response times get higher to try and keep the server responsive and not completely kill it.

    Could be that the extra requests that the path traversal module performs have overwhelmed the server and sort of DoS'ed it so instead of adding only a few minutes to the scan time it's adding quite a lot of time by killing the server.

    Do you still have the older package around so that you can try with it and see if there's any difference?

  11. 39 Posted by Hariharan Madha... on 05 Aug, 2013 03:59 PM

    Hariharan Madhavan's Avatar

    Have you updated the build in the main site also

    http://www.arachni-scanner.com/download/

    Cos that one was fast in terms of speed.... I started using the nighties version only after trying the one in teh main site.

  12. Support Staff 40 Posted by Tasos Laskos on 05 Aug, 2013 04:01 PM

    Tasos Laskos's Avatar

    No that one's the same still.

  13. 41 Posted by Hariharan Madha... on 06 Aug, 2013 02:44 PM

    Hariharan Madhavan's Avatar

    Okay I have evidence here.. Attached is the screenshot. It was really fast with your build in the main site..

    ruby 31542 root 9u IPv4 412722129 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33126->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 10u IPv4 412721995 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:41133->127.0.0.1:5432 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 11u IPv4 412722091 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33103->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 12u IPv4 412722098 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:41135->127.0.0.1:5432 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 13u IPv4 412722122 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33125->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 14u IPv4 412722143 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33133->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 15u IPv4 412722154 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33134->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 16u IPv4 412722168 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33141->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 17u IPv4 412722175 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33142->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 18u IPv4 412722183 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33143->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 19u IPv4 412722194 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33144->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 20u IPv4 412722202 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33145->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 21u IPv4 412722209 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33146->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 22u IPv4 412722217 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33147->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 23u IPv4 412722228 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33148->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 24u IPv4 412722235 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33149->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 25u IPv4 412722242 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33150->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 26u IPv4 412722249 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33151->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 27u IPv4 412722260 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33152->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 28u IPv4 412722268 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33153->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 29u IPv4 412722275 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33154->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 30u IPv4 412722283 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33155->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 31u IPv4 412722294 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33156->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 32u IPv4 412722303 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33157->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 33u IPv4 412722309 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33158->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 34u IPv4 412722317 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33159->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 35u IPv4 412722328 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33160->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 36u IPv4 412722336 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33161->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 37u IPv4 412722343 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33162->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 38u IPv4 412722351 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33163->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 39u IPv4 412722361 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33164->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 40u IPv4 412722369 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33165->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 41u IPv4 412722376 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33166->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 42u IPv4 412722383 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33167->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 43u IPv4 412722448 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33186->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 44u IPv4 412722457 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33188->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 45u IPv4 412722464 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33189->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 46u IPv4 412722474 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33190->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 47u IPv4 412722485 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33191->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 48u IPv4 412722493 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33192->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 49u IPv4 412722499 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33193->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 50u IPv4 412722506 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33194->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 51u IPv4 412722517 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33195->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 52u IPv4 412722525 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33196->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 53u IPv4 412722532 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33197->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 54u IPv4 412722540 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33198->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 55u IPv4 412722551 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33199->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 56u IPv4 412722559 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33200->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 57u IPv4 412722566 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33201->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 58u IPv4 412722573 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33202->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 59u IPv4 412722583 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33203->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 60u IPv4 412722591 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33204->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 61u IPv4 412722598 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33205->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 62u IPv4 412722606 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33206->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 63u IPv4 412722616 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33207->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 64u IPv4 412722624 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33208->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31542 root 65u IPv4 412722631 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:33209->127.0.0.1:44806 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 8u IPv4 412722090 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806 (LISTEN)
    ruby 31561 root 9u IPv4 412722092 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33103 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 10u IPv4 412721995 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:41133->127.0.0.1:5432 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 11u IPv4 412722465 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33189 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 12u IPv4 412722475 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33190 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 13u IPv4 412722429 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42551->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 14u IPv4 412722431 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42552->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 15u IPv4 412722486 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33191 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 16u IPv4 412722440 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42560->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 17u IPv4 412722424 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42547->10.0.2.201:80 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 18u IPv4 412722494 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33192 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 19u IPv4 412722427 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42549->10.0.2.201:80 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 20u IPv4 412722428 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42550->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 21u IPv4 412722432 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42553->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 22u IPv4 412722433 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42554->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 23u IPv4 412722435 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42555->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 24u IPv4 412722169 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33141 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 25u IPv4 412722176 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33142 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 26u IPv4 412722436 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42556->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 27u IPv4 412722184 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33143 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 28u IPv4 412722437 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42557->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 29u IPv4 412722438 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42558->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 30u IPv4 412722439 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42559->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 31u IPv4 412722123 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33125 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 32u IPv4 412722130 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33126 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 33u IPv4 412722144 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33133 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 34u IPv4 412722155 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33134 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 35u IPv4 412722195 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33144 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 36u IPv4 412722203 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33145 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 37u IPv4 412722210 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33146 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 38u IPv4 412722218 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33147 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 39u IPv4 412722229 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33148 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 40u IPv4 412722236 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33149 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 41u IPv4 412722243 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33150 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 42u IPv4 412722250 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33151 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 43u IPv4 412722261 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33152 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 44u IPv4 412722269 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33153 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 45u IPv4 412722276 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33154 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 46u IPv4 412722284 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33155 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 47u IPv4 412722295 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33156 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 48u IPv4 412722304 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33157 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 49u IPv4 412722310 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33158 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 50u IPv4 412722318 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33159 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 51u IPv4 412722329 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33160 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 52u IPv4 412722337 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33161 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 53u IPv4 412722344 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33162 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 54u IPv4 412722352 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33163 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 55u IPv4 412722362 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33164 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 56u IPv4 412722370 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33165 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 57u IPv4 412722377 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33166 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 58u IPv4 412722384 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33167 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 59u IPv4 412722441 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42561->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 60u IPv4 412722442 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42562->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 61u IPv4 412722443 0t0 TCP 10.0.28.20:42563->10.0.2.201:80 (CLOSE_WAIT)
    ruby 31561 root 62u IPv4 412722449 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33186 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 63u IPv4 412722458 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33188 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 64u IPv4 412722500 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33193 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 65u IPv4 412722507 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33194 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 66u IPv4 412722518 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33195 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 67u IPv4 412722526 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33196 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 68u IPv4 412722533 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33197 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 69u IPv4 412722541 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33198 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 70u IPv4 412722552 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33199 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 71u IPv4 412722560 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33200 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 72u IPv4 412722567 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33201 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 73u IPv4 412722574 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33202 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 74u IPv4 412722584 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33203 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 75u IPv4 412722592 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33204 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 76u IPv4 412722599 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33205 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 77u IPv4 412722607 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33206 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 78u IPv4 412722617 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33207 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 79u IPv4 412722625 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33208 (ESTABLISHED)
    ruby 31561 root 80u IPv4 412722632 0t0 TCP 127.0.0.1:44806->127.0.0.1:33209 (ESTABLISHED)

    But it needs this many local connections(lsof -i -n -P)

  14. Support Staff 42 Posted by Tasos Laskos on 06 Aug, 2013 10:38 PM

    Tasos Laskos's Avatar

    (Man the spam filter really hates you, it keeps flagging your comments as spam, which is why it takes some time for them to appear.)

    Yeah the server is having a hard time, again, about 1 second average response time. It barely handles the heat of the audit of the previous package and the increased requests of the nightly build nudges it into "pretty much dead" mode.

    With that being said, the path_traversal module of the current nightlies has reduced requests but I can't really do anything about your situation -- short of getting you a better server.

    There is something you can do though to try and keep the server responsive.
    You can set the HTTP request concurrency to around 10 or so, hopefully that'll keep you in the green by not stressing the server and the improved responsiveness will make up for the lower concurrency -- you need to find the balance.

  15. Tasos Laskos closed this discussion on 06 Aug, 2013 10:38 PM.

  16. Tasos Laskos re-opened this discussion on 06 Aug, 2013 10:38 PM

  17. Support Staff 43 Posted by Tasos Laskos on 06 Aug, 2013 10:38 PM

    Tasos Laskos's Avatar

    Btw, it doesn't need the many connections, the 2 issues are completely unrelated.

  18. Tasos Laskos closed this discussion on 06 Aug, 2013 10:39 PM.

  19. Tasos Laskos closed this discussion on 15 Sep, 2013 02:45 PM.

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